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Erratic idle 1st few seconds from cold

Discussion in 'Other Almera Discussion' started by tinos, Aug 28, 2016.

  1. tinos

    tinos

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    Location:
    cambs
    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    Hi everyone
    Newbie on forums but fairly knowledgeable old git here so be gentle. Have looked all over for resolve including these forums. Hope I have obeyed all rules.

    2003 UK plate / 1.8 petrol Tino S/ MPV Has unstable idle from cold for a few seconds then all ok until cold again . Possible red herring as did get engine management light (MIL) on but please read why in the history below. Really want to sort rough idle issue & unsure if engine management light associated.

    Don’t want to start swapping bits & loathed to take to Nissan just yet.....
    Have trawled the net to find out what type of DLC (diagnostic link connector) is fitted , lower LH side of steering wheel as pic below / attached (just tried to preview the post on other thread & said I wasn’t allowed as not a member even though signed in !! So apologies if no one else can see it as it explains a lot)

    tino 2003 arrowed crop.jpg

    Was hoping to find out code with either cheap reader or paperclip short out x2 pins (chk & 12v).
    IN BRIEF – on this vehicle with this connector does anyone know ? (UPDATE : paper clip trick doesnt work on this vehicle instead bought vgate890 diagnostic tester = works a treat but updates & conencting to PC win7 has issues unresolved as yet)
    1) if the paperclip method can actually be used to read the codes based on vehicle spec & connector? if so which x1 socket number equals “CHK” to be shorted with 12v ?

    2) Is it an OBD2 socket in disguise or what type of socket is it? My thinking is that the x2 lower lugs depict the wider end of a standard D shape OBD2plug. Could anyone confirm this 100%? see photo dotted lines (UPDATE is OBD2 comaptible , Nissan use a consult diagnostics)

    3) Which cheap reader / re-setter is compatible with this vehicle?
    (any sales person will sell ice to an Eskimo) as various famous sites checked all say their reader is compatible but when entering car details it says sorry not compatible . Not really wanting to go back to Nissan but may have too, unless some wizard can help here.(UPDATE : VGATE890)

    READ ON
    Problem is the Shape of socket isn’t right for a standard OBD2 But again see white dotted line in photo. According to web results this aged car should be fitted with OBD2 pending enforcement at that time & pin outs clearly don't look like OBD2 !. While the paperclip method cannot be done as pin outs don’t correspond to what is expected when the paperclip method is been talked about i.e. I don’t have 2 outer sockets and unable to find CHK pin.

    HISTORY, theories & what tried
    # Unsure if coincidence as not 100% sure but ROUGH IDLE SEEMED TO START after redex petrol cleaner put in petrol tank. This addition is done once every few years as have done for many years before. Also found engine oil low so topped up. (but worth a mention just in case)
    # After & around this time I noticed engine would rough idle (hunt) from cold only for about 2 – 3 seconds after starting (no MIL lit) & then would be fine until left to cool again. Regardless of outside weather conditions. ALSO NOTE no foot on throttle to start and if tried to drive off before 3 seconds eng may stall or kangaroo while attempting pull away.
    # Thought probably a bit of crap in fuel & ignored it but rough idle did not go away.
    # I checked & set spark plug gaps (not that far out & colour = nice buff colour not white or sooty black) while inside exhaust also nice clean greyish colour. Getting around 37 MPG as always. With no plumes of smoke etc when driving with reasonable acceleration.
    # Exhaust under car no holes in it but found broken front bracket something else to rectify later.
    # air filter not that old & clean but also took it out temporarily to try one start but still same rough idle on starting from cold.
    # air pipes all looking good no splits or perishing or leaks & all tight. A few easy access breather pipes checked for blockages. But admit not all pipes checked.
    # MAF removed inspected & found few black deposits on leading edge (used magnifying glass), cleaned very gentle with squirt of contact cleaner. Definitely cleaner but NO difference.
    # MAF volts tested with multimeter and from what I could compare & later confirmed all volts ok before ign on , with ign on, with eng started & with eng slightly rev’d. (according to some guy on youtube, & Haynes manual figures)
    # Hair now been pulled out & was banking on it been the MAF so disconnected MAF electrically BUT STILL THE SAME & now MIL lit for the first time as would be expected.
    # thinking this was a red herring and to get rid of eng MIL light left battery disconnected 24 hrs to turn off the Mil light.
    # Now wanting a diagnostic kit but which one or which 2 pins to short out ????(UPDATE : not on this car) Consulted Haynes electrical diagram to find Diagnotic plug or pin outs for IGN& CHK pins.. No chance. Down loaded Almera service manual from Russian site & a lot better but I think not 100% for Tino model as shows DLC (diagnostic socket) but I have more electrical sockets in mine & CHK not shown.
    # Car was due for oil & oil filter change so carried out around this time& as expected no change with cold idle issue but worth a mention... However another possible red herring as after this oil change let car idle for a while to distribute new oil into filter etc then car was rev’d very briefly up to around 3.2K RPM and the MIL light lit ??? unsure if this is now the same fault or just created a new one as rarely does car get beyond this RPM in normal driving & yes I know you should not do this from a cold engine.
    # Now getting more desperate for error code reader one way or the other to cure the idle issue more than anything. No point in buying any one as may not fit or be compatible with this obscure connector & pin out. Also still loathed to go to Nissan. (UPDATE: vgate890)
    # So my thought was without any 100% correct diagrams lets do some logical testing before attempting shorting out pins willy nilly & short out 12v to gnd or put 12v into ECU & fry this or set fire to the old girl. (UPDATE: no dont try)


    So Based on the connector and what most other web sources are stating the pins are numbered as per photo above or thus. (looking from the front of the connector and wider D shape at the bottom)
    UPPER ROW (LH socket 16 to RH socket 9 )
    sockets populated 16, 13 , 12
    Socket empty 15 , 14, 11, 10, 9

    LOWER ROW (LH socket 8 to RH socket 1)
    Socket populated 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
    sockets empty 2, 1.


    # So with +ive disconnected on battery to break loop. Resistance checks carried out with mainly IGN off (but noted if on) with respect to car earth tested each socket.
    16 = increases in resistance to a few K ohms (maybe CHK?) & with ign on steady 18.6 ohms.
    13 = 6.7M ohm but with ign on 0 ohms (probably 12v IGN TBC)
    12 = over range (probably battery feed constant 12v TBC)
    8 = 73 ohms (maybe CHK?)
    7 = 43K ohms (maybe CHK?)
    6 = 1.1K ohms (maybe CHK?)
    5 = 0 ohms either car Gnd or signal Gnd
    4 = 0 ohms either car Gnd or signal Gnd
    3 = 1.1K ohms (maybe CHK?)


    Can anyone confirm which pin is 100% CHK socket as not wanting to fry anything if wanting to try paperclip shorting method. Or what reader will read this combo ? Any help from any Nissan Tino wizards appreciated. (UPDATE: is OBD2 or Nissan consult)

    Many huge thanks for taking the time to read this long post.
    and as I say I don't want to start replacing sensors until I know what I might be up against.


    Tino bod (now hairless)

    will be away shortly so unable to get web access so apologies if late in any replies
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  2. Hally

    Hally Administrator Staff Member

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    Welcome.

    The connector will be made for Nissans Consult diagnostic system, but will take OBD2 also.

    I know absolutely nothing about Tinos or QG's so can't help you with the issue, but if you really want to get in depth I would download the Factory Service Manual for a phase 2 N16 Almera. The engine control and diagnostics should be very similar.

    http://www.almeraownersclub.com/resources/almera-n16.11/
     
  3. tinos

    tinos

    Messages:
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    Location:
    cambs
    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    Many thanks for fast response Hally
    I have down loaded from the manual from the link provided & shall take a look to see if this service manual can help. Looks like it will take a bit of digging and nice to know its OBD2 so may just buy a cheap reader & see if it will show up what may be causing erratic idle.
    If I get chance I will post back here with any findings to help others who may be in same situation.

    Cheers again
     
  4. Liam

    Liam

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    Whilst its cold and running rough try disconnecting the coil packs one at a time.

    If the idle doesnt change with a certain coil unplugged your problem could be there.
     
  5. tinos

    tinos

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    Location:
    cambs
    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    Hi Liam
    Thanks for the suggestion, will look at this possibility when more time. I understand where you are coming from however I have about 3 seconds after which the old girl ticks over fine. Not sure this would work as disconnecting 1 pack at a time we would have constant really rough running, therefore masking the fairly small scale erratic idle (approx 1300rpm to 850 rpm) after these 3 seconds I can pull away & no issues until engine gone cold again.

    When I do find out by what ever method I shall post back.

    Cheers
    Tino Bod
     
    Liam likes this.
  6. tinos

    tinos

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    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    Okay people , latest update. eventually purchased a vgate vs890 obd2 reader - in a nutshell found
    Pending code P0340 CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR A, BANK1 CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION

    NOTE THE WORD "CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION" and not necassarily the sensor itself !
    Things I now have to check / try:
    Not sure yet how to do all items but really easy to change the sensor and only about £15 so might be worth starting with that.
    Visually inspect & check continuity in the position sensor & all wiring / connectors in the circuit... replace as neceassary
    Check the operation (voltage) of the camshaft position sensor
    Diagnose/replace the PCM as required

    Happy motoring
    Tino bod

    Oh ref the vgate vs890 not the cheapest or most expensive around £40 - as others not easy to get drivers or updates on a win7 system, still to achieve but in reality may not need to. Powered by usb or the obd2 car plug. It supports many car manufacturers, will turn off MIL and read all codes with many protocols supported, So far so good classing it as an investment for the whole family so not to get ripped off by any garage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  7. Prim gt

    Prim gt

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    Location:
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    Model:
    Primera gt/almera ph1 sport
    Chassis:
    P11 + N16
    Cam chain needs changing.You can confirm this by checking the tensioner plunger protrusion, anymore than 10mm then needs doing.
     
  8. tinos

    tinos

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    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    This is getting a bit deep for my liking, :( Is the tensioner plunger accessible without removing anything? Had a quick look in the service manual a looks like under a cover .do sensors often fail??



    second thought : if it was the cam chain would this be erratic at all temperatures when idle?
    I would of thought so.... mine hunts slightly from cold for 3 seconds then all ok if kept running. when at norm op temps then stop & switch off for a while and start again then no hunting. However let cool down to nearly cold and then its a bit difficult to start?

    any thoughts advice appreciated as sounds expensive..... .

    Tino bod
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  9. Prim gt

    Prim gt

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    Location:
    North East
    Model:
    Primera gt/almera ph1 sport
    Chassis:
    P11 + N16
    Rare that cam/crank sensors fail...You need to remove the rocker cover and the upper timing chain cover...The pending code is the early signs of cam chain trouble.

    Hard starting /slow cranking is another sign of the chain being stretched.
     
  10. tinos

    tinos

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    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    No signs yet of hard starting / slow cranking from cold only when temp gauge slightly just off from bottom of temp gauge. However when above this temp then all starts & idles ok. Myself being electrically orientated thinking of possibility of sensor may have a temp area that is faulty. (I know various sensors can fail just in certain areas and not outright) Will do some homework & measurements on the sensor hopefully soon and if unsure for the sake of £15 - £20 for a new sensor probably worth throwing at the old girl & see how she responds. Will reply back when I get chance. Thanks for all input as it could prepare me for a nasty shock later as I hadn't considerd that it could be a worn chain, Admittedly my thinking is that a worn chain would of given bad idle when engine at normal operating temps, which it isn't !! . Also connector to sensor & wiring looks ok as connector already given a squirt of wd40 on the contacts.

    thanks again

    Tino bod

    By all means any thoughts please post back as 2 brains are better than one.
     
  11. tinos

    tinos

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    Location:
    cambs
    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    LATEST UPDATES keeping fingers crossed
    carried out some checks on the sensor

    SENSOR CHECKS (= hall effect 3 leads)
    CHECKS carried out with sensor insitue & connector connected to sensor with a small pin carefully inserted into lead where it goes into the connector.
    NOTE; ensure DVM set to read correct setting before connecting leads

    Ignition state : Type of check : Lead colour : To where : My reading
    off : Resistance (Low = ground continuity ) : black : Battery -ive : 2.3ohms (ok)

    on (eng off) : DC voltage feedback to ecu etc? : red : Battery -ive : 9.83v (?)

    on (eng off) : DC voltage from battery : white : Battery -ive : 11.8v (ok)


    After doing the above checks and removing the sensor, found what looked like a tiny bit of cream oil emulsion in two recessed areas on the sensor (no more than 4mm x 2mm). Wiped this off & reinserted sensor & connected back up , started the car, Low & behold car started as normal & no hunting for 3 seconds. Switched off immediately & switched on again same result bingo..... checked pending DTC codes now nothing pending. WTF moment one happy bunny. Will try again once the car has cooled down and been left a while.

    Possible theory is that the cream gunk also contained tiny metal particles that somehow interfered with the hall effect readings within the first 3 seconds of the idle period after engine started from cold. I believe it wasn’t dirty contacts as the connector has been off quite a few times & had WD40 on the contacts. Watch this space..... will post back to let all know if this is cured

    Tino bod keeping fingers crossed
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  12. Prim gt

    Prim gt

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    Chassis:
    P11 + N16
    Still highly likely the chain needs doing,fitting a new sensor may lead to a complete non start situation. I've had worn chains and the idle has been fine.These chains don't rattle either like most do when worn.
     
  13. tinos

    tinos

    Messages:
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    Location:
    cambs
    Model:
    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    Hi prim gt,
    Thanks for the advice, I will take what you say on board especially about the non rattling chains, good advice for all.
    So from what I have encountered & understand so far.
    # No engine light on but with cold engine, engine hunts at idle for 3 seconds then all ok.
    # Engine MPG no change.
    # DTC reader Shows pending code P0340 = camshaft position sensor A - bank1 circuit malfunction

    # Camshaft position sensor connector contacts clean.
    # Voltages at the camshaft sensor connector 12v dc and 9.8v dc and with good ground (hall effect 3 wires) proves wiring good.
    # Removed sensor & cleaned small amount of crud from sensor that sits next to the camshaft.
    # Refitted sensor & pending code cleared by itself with no more erratic idle. This was after approximately just over 2 months of living with the above symptom. So far so good.... time will tell.

    However a stretched camshaft chain can show symptoms of:
    # Pending code P0340
    # Bad starting or no start... but is this at all engine temperatures ?
    # Rough or erratic idle... but is this at all engine temperatures?
    # Are there any other symptoms to look out for with a worn camshaft chain ?



    All the best Tino Bod

     
  14. tinos

    tinos

    Messages:
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    S 1.8 petrol 2003
    Chassis:
    v10
    Hi Prim gt,, Advice eventaully taken on cam chain replacement as gradually got worse with as what you said poor starting. Therefore much Kudos to you. Now the old girl works a treat except a bit of an oil leak that occured after local garage fitted a full chain kit inc optional advance timing cog/block option !! (so full option kit around £450 & around £150 for labour inc new oil & antifreeze as sump & waterpump removed). Car is therefore going back in to have oil leak looked at. All in all the old girl should last a bit longer now.

    Happy Tino Bod