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FTO Brake Upgrade

Discussion in 'N15 Styling, Cosmetics & Bodywork' started by Jonjoe, Aug 9, 2014.

  1. Jonjoe

    Jonjoe

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    Ive bought some FTO GPX Brake Calipers, and I'm about to purchase some Clio 172/182 discs...
    My question is...

    When i test fitted the Mitsubishi calipers... (to see if they fit under the alloys) they sat further out thantha almera brake disc,

    What im wondering is, is wheather the clio discs sit out the correct amount to meet up with the FTO calipers, or do i need to put wheel spacers behind the discs to get the to sit correctly.

    Also as a minor note... Just because i want to check... but i have to drill the caliper mounting holes on the Almera a tiny bit bigger to accommodate the larger bolts used by Mitsubishi....
     
  2. Dyldo

    Dyldo

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    1mm washer between caliper and hub

    3-4mm spacer inside the bell of the disc

    ....... I think

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  3. Jonjoe

    Jonjoe

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    Its ok.... this is the kinda stuff im looking for.

    You reckon i will be able to use the halfords specials wheel spacers?
     
  4. Dyldo

    Dyldo

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    Doubt it coz they need to be turned down to fit inside the brake disc bell. CoV off here made a few up always worth a PM but I think he's up to his eyes these days but always worth an ask

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  5. Sam

    Sam Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't need to space the calipers at all.

    You do need to drill the hubs for the bigger bolts.

    THE best method is to get 2mm machined from the carriers and the mounting points on the hubs.

    No need for spacers then.

    Otherwise it's a 4mm spacer behind the disc.
     
  6. Ashley h

    Ashley h

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    There is a drawing on the forum somewhere to give to a machining shop with all the exact dimensions which I emailed to a company who machined them and sent them to me, can't remember the price but wasn't too much and they fit perfect and work great.
    I only drilled the bottom hole on the hub and they seemed to go on fine.


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  7. Jonjoe

    Jonjoe

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    I will be buggered if i can find the drawing....
    i kinda like the grinding the carriers down, but because i want to space my wheels out anyway, i might go for the wheel spacer idea.
    I will decide on Thursday, and just get something done.
    Thanks for the help all the same.

    Appreciate it.
     
  8. Jonjoe

    Jonjoe

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    Anyway. Quick update on this. i'm going to write this assuming none of the above comments so it works better as a how-to

    I did it at the weekend.

    FTO Brake Calliper and Clio Disc Upgrade.

    I used Renault Clio 172/182 (or just 2.0l) Disc brakes from a 2003 model (also the same brakes are used on lagunas and meganes)
    I got the Mintex Drilled/Grooved, for the looks :p (Total diameter is 280mm (so you know what to look for) about £60

    I also got some Mitsubishi FTO GPX Callipers. (The GPX Callipers are the dual piston compared to the standard single pistons on all other FTO's) about £30 (Second Hand)
    (I got a calliper refurb kit, £30 and some Red calliper paint £10 and refurbed and painted before installing) (since I had the opportunity)

    I also got 4x Ebay Special 5mm Wheel Spacers (complete universals for 4x100, 5x100 5x108 ect) (the real cheap nasty ones,) about £5)

    I got the Wheel Spacers as I was told the Clio disc brake sits further back (i.e towards the inside of the car) by 4mm than the Mitsubishi Callipers will hold.

    I had a few bits of advice, as to how resolve this spacer issue. i.e shave 2mm off the Almera hub at the calliper mounting points and 2mm off the FTO Calliper carriers. ect

    However I decided rather than (possibly) reduce the structural integrity of the parts, I would rather space the Disc out 5mm from the hub, and space the calliper out 1mm from the hub to get them to fit./... hence the wheel spacers. (I also wanted to space my wheels out wider anyway)

    The idea was to fit the wheel spacers, between the hub and the disc brake, however they didn't fit inside the recess in the disc brake, so I went down to the local machining shop and paid an engineer to machine the spacers down. I'm guessing with them being universals that would fit a 5x114.3 fitment, they had a much wider diameter than some specific 4x100 would be and some 4x100 specific spacers are more likely to fit but I wouldn't like to guarantee that.

    Once I had the spacers re-sized to fit snuggly inside the disc, I proceeded to test fit the parts before putting them on permanently.
    The Clio discs fitted on the hub fine with the spacers, and the callipers fitted fine over the discs, ( with the spacers in place,) and my wheels fit over the callipers.

    FYI the wheels are Rota Grid V's at 15inch and they fit fine. I cant say anything for the standard GTI Wheels.

    Now out of interest the FTO GPX Calliper Carrier bolts which attach to the hub are 12mm diameter bore, where as the Almera calliper bolts are 11mm bore (don't quote me on the Almera size) , but what it means is the hole inside the Almera hub is too small for the FTO GPX calliper bolts.

    I had to buy a 12mm metal drill bit, and enlargen the holes in the hub.
    It was because of this permanent alteration that I test fitted everything first (test fitted the callipers with the 11mm Almera bolts that didn't fit, but held it pretty much in place)

    The drilling of the holes itself was easy, but actually drilling them out central was nigh on impossible, and on both hubs I didn't manage to get the callipers to fit correctly first time, as the drilled holes didn't mate up with the calliper holes directly. I had to drill the hub holes out in an oval shape to get them to fit. (Use some logic at which ones to drill oblong so that under heavy braking all the force isn't sat only on one bolt).

    Once I had done this I put all the parts on and spaced the callipers out by 1mm, to make the difference between the callipers and discs, to be 4mm from standard. (Out of interest, this turned out to be incorrect for me, and when I test drove the car, the brakes were binding, and once I removed the 1mm spacing for the callipers everything worked out fine. So I would recommend a 5mm difference personally)

    Once I had put it all together I did notice that the outside edge of the disc, and the inside edge of the calliper were really close, and when I rotated the disc to make sure it fitted, it didn't properly. every one turn of the full wheel resulted in a part of the edge of the disc rubbing on the inside edge of the bridge of the calliper carrier as the disc wasn't absolutely central.

    I took the wheel back off and these particular mintex disc, had 2 centring screw holes (along with the 4 stud holes) but the Almera doesn't support centring screws. The disc didn't also fit completely snuggly over the wheel studs. What I did to resolve this was to put the disc on, (loose), and put the wheel on, and tighten the wheel nut bolts until the wheel was just starting to get tight against the disc brake (i.e putting some friction to start to hold it in place.) I then rotated the wheel until it started to rub, rotated backwards 180degrees, then placed the rubber end of my hammer between the wheel and the disc (on the opposite side of the calliper) and pushing the disc towards the calliper. (having the wheel on loose enough for the wheel and disc to move slightly). I repeated this a few times until I was happy it was no longer going to rub.

    I also bled the brakes and took it for a test drive, and had a very got a noticeable difference under foot. whether that is because of just having new pads or the better brakes I don't know. However what was of concern to me the whole time was putting on larger capacity callipers was going to create a spongy feel under foot, as is usual on cars when you install bigger brakes, and that I would have to install a larger master cylinder to compensate for this, however it turned out to not require this as the brake performance is excellent under foot.

    I have recently upgraded my tyres to Toyo proxies, and with those tyres and these brakes, it takes a considerable amount of braking force for the wheels to actually lock up and cause the ABS to kick in. Which of course is a good thing.

    I couldn't say how much of an improved braking experience I have had compared to just putting some new good pads on Almera callipers and discs, however if anything they look far better with this upgrade, and I am very happy with how much better it is now, than before I did all this work.

    I will post some pictures up later, however the pictures aren't good enough to support a full how-to
     
  9. Ashley h

    Ashley h

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    Glad you got these sorted, in my opinion they look so much better under the wheel and mine made a substantial difference to braking. How is your braking/driving with cheap spacers on? Any wobble or juddering at all?
    There is actually a how to on fitting these in the how to section which is where the drawing is that I used for the spacers.


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  10. Jonjoe

    Jonjoe

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    Lol. I couldn't find it, but im not a paid member at the moment that's probably why.
    The car is fine with the cheap wheelspacers, but I think it might be more testament to them being a real snug fit inside the rear of the disc brake, so they cant be off centre. As for them being balanced, I can get upto about 110mph without any shuddering what so ever at them moment. At that speed it could be more likely that the disc brake is more balanced but less central, and causing more wobble due to its larger circumference and size and weight, rather than those mega light but unbalanced and thus comparably less affective, I guess. ------------ (<--- Does that make any sense?)

    And out of interest, due to the unique way all the parts go together, ive not been able to use any spigot rings anywhere, much to my dismay - but surprise that it balanced.
     
  11. Sam

    Sam Moderator Staff Member

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    Machining the hub and calipers completely removes any issue with the disc misalignment (the centre bore of the Renault and Nissan discs are the same) this also gives you the full centre of the hub for the spigot/wheel to sit on.

    Much safer and saves any faffing lining the discs up every time you remove a wheel.

    It will work fine with spacers but I would always prefer a solid solution.
     
  12. Jonjoe

    Jonjoe

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    Yea but the Mintex discs haven't got the same centre bore. They are slightly larger at 60.1mm (iirc) rather than 59mm (I think)

    The callipers and hub have had nothing to do with the disc centring.

    The disc centring alignment is done with the centreing screws, (which I cant use) and the discs position on the studs (which had 1mm of sideways play). It wasn't tight enough on the centre bore.
    The spacers I used ended up being absolutely ideal for the offset required. .

    I'm pretty happy with the results I've got as it is.
     
  13. Ashley h

    Ashley h

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    Machining the hub and carriers would deffo be the way to go for sure. I used a proper spacer made to the disc which sits perfectly in the back of the disc and also sits through the disc so my spigots and wheels still sit correct without just relying on bolts. I would machine the hubs and carriers in future if i did it again purely for the reasons Sam said. If it works, it works though aye


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  14. Sam.

    Sam.

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    Just for reference. I still had a set of freshly refurbed calipers with custom spacers made for sale.
     
  15. Sam

    Sam Moderator Staff Member

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    if you look at the hub centres where the disc sits, it is bigger than the 59.1mm section the wheel sits on, the disc centres are the same size.
     
  16. Aris

    Aris

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    I know its a long time ago from the last post. Have the same issue with discs which have 60.1mm than 59.1 the hub has. How can I solve this problem? Only clio discs can be used? Thanks..
     
  17. Sam

    Sam Moderator Staff Member

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    The centres are the correct size, as I mentioned above.

    Almera disc

    258mm.jpg

    Clio disc

    280mm.jpg
     
  18. Aris

    Aris

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    My discs have slightly bigger bore diam and are not really snug..With the wheel off it has some play...you can see it also. Have some vibrations when accelerate often...
     
  19. Aris

    Aris

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    Only clio's discs can be used?