Craigs New Datsun Sunny

have you got cam gears? as this is one of the reassons i think they do the whole -5 +5 thing with the N1 cams on 2.0 motors..

yeh thats what i'm saying about doin above - is it -5 intake, and +5 exhaust you're talking about ian? thats what i have in mind to widen the lsa

I know I gave Jez a big up to you but 4* ignition timing is fucked...unless you're a tooth out?

no they checked the cam timing, but alas i had it spot on. tbf to jez it's not really his fault it was oulled back that much to stop the nasty detonation. i'm just waiting on a reply from him to see if it was the base timing or mao he altered

Are you using adjustable cam gears? If so which ones are you using? I'm trying to decide which ones to get, the purple ones on gspec or bc ones on ebay.

i got the jwt ones mate, but wish i'd seen those slider type mentioned in your thread with the arp clamping bolts. much easier to tune

Well i'd go down the line of sorting the N1 cam switch points, get your MSS switching the cams independantly of each other first.

Sort the oil burning out too...

....THEN get yourself another mapping and dyno session and get the igntion timing optimised, and then look at cam timing if you still arent seeing the results you expect. I think sorting the switch points out so that they engage independantly will make a good difference to the power delivery too. From what ive seen, a 600rpm gap seems like a good setup. Perhaps 5300/5900rpm with N1 Cams.

Im not going to encourage that you mess with your LSA and base ignition timing yourself, its needs doing by a tuner on a dyno with headphones to listen for pinking and make to the necessary adjustments to the fuel and timing maps. (.... and I dont want any responsibility if you fuck it up) :lol:

I think it just needs some more tuning time... as you said yourself, you ran out of time for a dyno session due to problems and you had to have it road mapped intsead.


hmmm, don't think i can sort the independent switchin without a new mss - one channel is permanently on lol and my money's tight.

also, i'm wondering if using 99 ron fuel with decent booster will be enough to stop any pinking and allow the timing to be upped. reason ithought about widening the lsa before a mapping seshwas A) to lower the effective comp and B) because Jez didn't seem too keen on cam gear tuning etc unfortunately

i'm also gonna make some det headphones for if i messs with owt lol
 
I suppose the VE motor is more complex having two cam profiles, 12.5:1 is a high CR, you'll need lots of ignition retard on the low lobe, but then you can chuck loads of ignition advance back in once you get onto the mother lobes.


also dale, as above you've said the knock could be worse and therefore ignition will neeed retarding more on the low lobes, and this is something i've read on the web too - but can you explain why please? lol, cos i'd have thought it was under heavy load etc in high end that knock could be just as bad?
 
also, i'm wondering if using 99 ron fuel with decent booster will be enough to stop any pinking and allow the timing to be upped. reason ithought about widening the lsa before a mapping seshwas A) to lower the effective comp and B) because Jez didn't seem too keen on cam gear tuning etc unfortunately

i'm also gonna make some det headphones for if i messs with owt lol

Well widening the LSA will lower your dynamic compression, and reduce pinking.
But on its own, all it will do is make the engine feel flatter in the midrange, on the plus side the power should hold on longer, right upto 8krpm.

Advancing the ignition timing also effects cylinder pressures, by making the mixture ignite sooner during the compression stroke, the burning/expanding gas and heat will cause the cylinder pressure to increase... the trick is to harness the combustion process and use that energy to push the piston down at just the right time.

Over advanced timing will therefore cause the pressure to peak too soon, and end up trying to push the piston down while its still on its way up the bore....and you end up with detonation.

Its also definatley worth mentioning that becuase you are burning oil, you are effectively lowering the octane of your fuel.

So anyway, you'll be bleeding out pressure by widening the LSA, then increasing cylinder pressure by advancing the ignition timing.

Ultimately, widening the LSA is just going to be a compromise to run more ignition advance.

Really the best option for you to make more area under the curve is higher octane fuel to support the ignition timing tweaks.

also dale, as above you've said the knock could be worse and therefore ignition will neeed retarding more on the low lobes, and this is something i've read on the web too - but can you explain why please? lol, cos i'd have thought it was under heavy load etc in high end that knock could be just as bad?

The easiest way to put it in context is to imagine trying to compress the mixture with the intake valve still open. Its a leak. The sooner the intake valve closes on the compression stroke, the more time there is to effectively compress the mixture.

Basically the low duration of the low lobes means less valve overlap, and that means LESS cylinder pressure is bled off, so your cylinder pressure is high.

On the mother lobes however, there is lots of intake valve overlap, so much more pressure is bled off, so cylinder compression figures would be lower.

Have a read up on dynamic compression ratio.

Anyway, stop asking me complicated questions !!:winkiss:Took me ages to write that crap...
 
lol cheers dale i'll stop now

to be honest, i've got a feeling the machine shop took more off the head and block and i've ended up with over 12.5:1. I'm seriously considering taking the head off to do the valve seals and at the same time using a thicker 1.5 or 1.8mm head gasket to drop the compression a tad - just to make the fuel thing easier, and obviously sorting the oil/octane rating thing you pointed out.

If anything i'd like the compression to be just low enough to narrow the lsa like most n1 cam users in the US seem to, my power feels like it's mainly from7-8k and beyond just stopped by the limiter- i'm tempted to rev to 8.5 or 9k to be honest.

i asked jez for a screenshot of the timing map - i probably worded it wrong as i meant the table full of timing figures through the rev range which i'll ask him for again, but he sent me a pic of the actual map if it means fuck all to anyone?! lol......

ign2.jpg
 
He's taken alot of timing out in places where he must of been getting det. You can see those last few boxes in the top right hand corner, which is full load/max rpm. Where your feeling the power, but before that it's not consistent, and will be causing the flatness.

Here's a N1 VE map (not mine), as you can see it's nice and gradual and the VE likes timing.

ve.jpg
 
ah yeh i'm starting to see now - you can see those flat stepped sections on the way up - especially around 4800 - 5500 which is why he switched the cams at 4800 cos he was getting so much det on the low lobes at 5k+

same at about 6k, when i get that surge of power from 7-8k i change up, the revs drop to 6 and it goes flat as a fart, as shown by that big step in the timing there too. So theoretically when the c/r and det issues are sorted it can be made nice and even and pull nicely all the way through

seriously thinking the 1.8mm cosworth gasket would be the best bet - drop the c/r to 12:1 ish and running good fuel be able to throw loads of timing back in. even if runnin high fuel and messin with the cam gears drops the effective comp enough to avoid det, i still don't think i'll really be makin use of the cam gears properly or be able to really up the timing enough to take advantage of the extra compression
 
you popped an MLS head gasket?!

head / block damage to follow...

yeh cheers nob :(

well it actually went whenmy dad was revving it to fuckk lookin for smoke :(

uber confused - bubbling in expansion tank, smoke at hhigh revs but not white. comp test shows 250psi across the board still
 
yeh cheers nob :(

well it actually went whenmy dad was revving it to fuckk lookin for smoke :(

uber confused - bubbling in expansion tank, smoke at hhigh revs but not white. comp test shows 250psi across the board still

to me that indicates that the issue aint hte head gasket OR its only when the engine is under load, i.e high revs.

you used ARP headbolts yes?
 
you used ARP headbolts yes?


arp studs yeh, i think it's only showing up cos it's not gone pop in a big way yet, don't see how it went it didn't show as getting hot, and if it got mega hot to blow you'd think it'dgo big time or other syptoms would show maybe

what you thinkin ross? head lifted?
 
arp studs yeh, i think it's only showing up cos it's not gone pop in a big way yet, don't see how it went it didn't show as getting hot, and if it got mega hot to blow you'd think it'dgo big time or other syptoms would show maybe

what you thinkin ross? head lifted?

did you torque the bolts to arp spec or nissan FSM spec?

that was my thought craig.

i dunno if you are maybe just jumping to worst case scenario. the compression aint down, which it would be regardless of the state of bust. its not overheating, and you aint burning water!

its weird though.

better not spam here anymore. text me if you wanna chat it out lol
 
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So what's happening with this HG then? Is there oil in the water or vice versa? What's the temp gauge doing?
 
i know rob :(

well kurt i may have been a bit hastey in strippin it down to headbolts ready to remove the head tomorrow lol

buuuuut, dad took the car out to see ehat it was like, didn't give it any more abuse than i had been doin for ages so shoulda been fine. we were trying to see smoke to work out the oil burning situation and dad revved it a fair bit on the drive while we watched the exhaust, then turned engine off and heard boiling and bubbloing from the expansion tank. with my history i instantly thought the obvious so did a comp test

1 - 280psi
2 - 250psi
3 - 250psi
4 - 250psi

cylinder1 seemed odd so repeated the test and this time it came out at 250 so seemed ok.

then the engine cooled down and the water in the expansion tank got sucked into the system so the level dropped to empty from full, so the water must have gone somewhere.

still wasn't sure so went down the road for a few miles to get it hot and sure enough it was bubbling again after. It hasn't done this once since i built the engine and i've been listning for it everytime i use it like mr paranoia!!

Temp gauge hasn't risen above normal this whole time but none of these obvious things happened before when my HG went. With this engine being a bit more precious i haven't wanted to keep driving until one of the obvious signs becomes apparent so i've started stripping it down and am fairly certain inthe morning i'll find evidence of something a miss.

Also, after the 2nd time of bubbling i noticed black/blue smoke, maybe some white in there too at high revs on the drive, so somethings up.

I'm hoping the gasket popped or the head lifted rather than rings :(

In a way i'm not too fussed, might use a 1.8mm cosworth gasket to lower the comp a bit, if rings are gone i'll cry - how will i tell if they are? scores or ridges in the bore?

go ahead, all tell me i'm stupid for stripping it down now lol
 
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